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	<title>Comments on: Return to Beneath the Valley of the Metadata</title>
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	<link>http://www.digitaldiner.org/2006/12/31/return-to-beneath-the-valley-of-the-metadata/?&amp;owa_from=feed&amp;owa_sid=</link>
	<description>Gavin Clabaugh's irregular blog on irregular things.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Margaret Rouse</title>
		<link>http://www.digitaldiner.org/2006/12/31/return-to-beneath-the-valley-of-the-metadata/#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>Margaret Rouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 00:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://diner.gilbert.org/?p=21#comment-21</guid>
		<description>Gavin,
I LOVE this analogy. It completely cracked me up. May I quote you and link to this article?

"On the other hand, imagine your emergency room surgeon is consulting a wiki of medical protocols that used a folksonomic classification system…"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gavin,<br />
I LOVE this analogy. It completely cracked me up. May I quote you and link to this article?</p>
<p>&#8220;On the other hand, imagine your emergency room surgeon is consulting a wiki of medical protocols that used a folksonomic classification system…&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.digitaldiner.org/2006/12/31/return-to-beneath-the-valley-of-the-metadata/#comment-20</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 15:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://diner.gilbert.org/?p=21#comment-20</guid>
		<description>Thank you Laura for pointing me to the Getty site. That is an amazing search. After trying your suggested search I tried "peeled oranges". Very nice.

My point was not that taxonomies don't work. The particular problem that I am addressing actually has an existing thesaurus, and even a hierarchical tool for determining the correct terms. It's very usable by professionals. It is totally unusable by authors or their peers. Could the tool be better? I'd like to think so, but that was my original question. I'd like to see one. I'd love nothing more than to slip behind the curtain and see what Getty is using.

BTW, I have nothing against using professional catalogers, but modern KM screams for disintermediation. As soon as you put middle-people in the process you add incredible cost and unacceptable lag. Folksonomies and user generated tagging, where not perfect squarely addresses these two issues. Is it good enough? That remains to be seen.

Would the ESP Game put the Getty catalogers out of a job? &lt;a href="http://jonschull.blogspot.com/2006/12/human-computation-google-video.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;http://jonschull.blogspot.com/2006/12/human-computation-google-video.html&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Laura for pointing me to the Getty site. That is an amazing search. After trying your suggested search I tried &#8220;peeled oranges&#8221;. Very nice.</p>
<p>My point was not that taxonomies don&#8217;t work. The particular problem that I am addressing actually has an existing thesaurus, and even a hierarchical tool for determining the correct terms. It&#8217;s very usable by professionals. It is totally unusable by authors or their peers. Could the tool be better? I&#8217;d like to think so, but that was my original question. I&#8217;d like to see one. I&#8217;d love nothing more than to slip behind the curtain and see what Getty is using.</p>
<p>BTW, I have nothing against using professional catalogers, but modern KM screams for disintermediation. As soon as you put middle-people in the process you add incredible cost and unacceptable lag. Folksonomies and user generated tagging, where not perfect squarely addresses these two issues. Is it good enough? That remains to be seen.</p>
<p>Would the ESP Game put the Getty catalogers out of a job? <a href="http://jonschull.blogspot.com/2006/12/human-computation-google-video.html" rel="nofollow">http://jonschull.blogspot.com/2006/12/human-computation-google-video.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Reed Stockman</title>
		<link>http://www.digitaldiner.org/2006/12/31/return-to-beneath-the-valley-of-the-metadata/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>Reed Stockman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://diner.gilbert.org/?p=21#comment-19</guid>
		<description>My comments are here
&lt;a href="http://afprc11.blogspot.com/2007/01/beths-blog-cross-blog-discussion.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;http://afprc11.blogspot.com/2007/01/beths-blog-cross-blog-discussion.html&lt;/a&gt;
Beth Kanter has some interesting discussion from a variety of folks using the NPTECH tag on her blog.
My short answers to her questions(See Below) are as follows
1. We use the NPTech tag to highlight news articles that we've seen that would also fit the evolving criteria for our AFP Nonprofit Technology News Blog.
2. Yes we subscribe to the feed to find resources and also to network. We would not however post the feed itself but instead use it as a winnowing device via our aggregator with the additional step of "human" filter.

3. Yes we read the summaries as well as selected posts. To date we skim the postings as opposed to sub searching( not sure if this is a real term) the tag.

4. We tag for both promotion and outreach. As a more general comment we also tag to categorize for future retrival (cataloging) of the material by topic. We find ourselves regularly challenged by the quandry of "broad" vs. "specific" tagging.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My comments are here<br />
<a href="http://afprc11.blogspot.com/2007/01/beths-blog-cross-blog-discussion.html" rel="nofollow">http://afprc11.blogspot.com/2007/01/beths-blog-cross-blog-discussion.html</a><br />
Beth Kanter has some interesting discussion from a variety of folks using the NPTECH tag on her blog.<br />
My short answers to her questions(See Below) are as follows<br />
1. We use the NPTech tag to highlight news articles that we&#8217;ve seen that would also fit the evolving criteria for our AFP Nonprofit Technology News Blog.<br />
2. Yes we subscribe to the feed to find resources and also to network. We would not however post the feed itself but instead use it as a winnowing device via our aggregator with the additional step of &#8220;human&#8221; filter.</p>
<p>3. Yes we read the summaries as well as selected posts. To date we skim the postings as opposed to sub searching( not sure if this is a real term) the tag.</p>
<p>4. We tag for both promotion and outreach. As a more general comment we also tag to categorize for future retrival (cataloging) of the material by topic. We find ourselves regularly challenged by the quandry of &#8220;broad&#8221; vs. &#8220;specific&#8221; tagging.</p>
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		<title>By: Marnie Webb</title>
		<link>http://www.digitaldiner.org/2006/12/31/return-to-beneath-the-valley-of-the-metadata/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>Marnie Webb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 19:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://diner.gilbert.org/?p=21#comment-18</guid>
		<description>@Laura: I agree that not knowing the right word is a problem of a bad taxonomy -- and one not maintained over time -- but it's tough to have a really good and thoroughly indexed taxonomy if you don't have a very high level of skill. I think, though, that a folksonomy can help with is this kind of maintenance. The tools aren't there yet but it's possible to imagine tagging systems as data sources that help to create indices, merging different phrases, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Laura: I agree that not knowing the right word is a problem of a bad taxonomy &#8212; and one not maintained over time &#8212; but it&#8217;s tough to have a really good and thoroughly indexed taxonomy if you don&#8217;t have a very high level of skill. I think, though, that a folksonomy can help with is this kind of maintenance. The tools aren&#8217;t there yet but it&#8217;s possible to imagine tagging systems as data sources that help to create indices, merging different phrases, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura Quinn</title>
		<link>http://www.digitaldiner.org/2006/12/31/return-to-beneath-the-valley-of-the-metadata/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura Quinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 17:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://diner.gilbert.org/?p=21#comment-17</guid>
		<description>To Kevin's question, about examples of large scale taxonomies....   This all depends on how large is large in your mind, and how efficient is effecient.  There's no question in my mind that a taxonomy can't effectively scale to categorize, say, the entire internet, and that it can't beat the efficiecy of having a bunch of people tag things for free.  These qualities are a tradeoff, though, against *comprehensiveness* and *accuracy*.  Take for instance, www.gettyimages.com, my favority taxonomy example (it's a stock photo).  They have a incredibly successful taxonomy, working against a collection of at least several hundred thousand photos.  Do some searches (say "family playing without dad") - it's truely an amazingly effective tool, geared towards people who need to find exact and effective things quickly.  Expensive to maintain?  No doubt.  But they've prioritized effectiveness. 

In my mind, tagging is great for browsing and for scalability, and it's much easier to implement.  But (good) taxonomies are far superior when people need to quickly see comprehensive results, and can be really helpful in situations where you don't have critical mass for tagging.  

To Marnie's comment about taxonomies being hard to use because you don't know the "right" word to use - that to me is a downside of a *bad* taxonomy, not the approach in general.  To my mind, a huge upside of a good taxonomy (carefully created and maintained over time) is that it will map like terms together so you can use the terms that make sense to you rather than having to channel the tagger or taxonomist in order to find things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Kevin&#8217;s question, about examples of large scale taxonomies&#8230;.   This all depends on how large is large in your mind, and how efficient is effecient.  There&#8217;s no question in my mind that a taxonomy can&#8217;t effectively scale to categorize, say, the entire internet, and that it can&#8217;t beat the efficiecy of having a bunch of people tag things for free.  These qualities are a tradeoff, though, against *comprehensiveness* and *accuracy*.  Take for instance, <a href="http://www.gettyimages.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.gettyimages.com</a>, my favority taxonomy example (it&#8217;s a stock photo).  They have a incredibly successful taxonomy, working against a collection of at least several hundred thousand photos.  Do some searches (say &#8220;family playing without dad&#8221;) - it&#8217;s truely an amazingly effective tool, geared towards people who need to find exact and effective things quickly.  Expensive to maintain?  No doubt.  But they&#8217;ve prioritized effectiveness. </p>
<p>In my mind, tagging is great for browsing and for scalability, and it&#8217;s much easier to implement.  But (good) taxonomies are far superior when people need to quickly see comprehensive results, and can be really helpful in situations where you don&#8217;t have critical mass for tagging.  </p>
<p>To Marnie&#8217;s comment about taxonomies being hard to use because you don&#8217;t know the &#8220;right&#8221; word to use - that to me is a downside of a *bad* taxonomy, not the approach in general.  To my mind, a huge upside of a good taxonomy (carefully created and maintained over time) is that it will map like terms together so you can use the terms that make sense to you rather than having to channel the tagger or taxonomist in order to find things.</p>
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		<title>By: Beth's Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.digitaldiner.org/2006/12/31/return-to-beneath-the-valley-of-the-metadata/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth's Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 21:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://diner.gilbert.org/?p=21#comment-23</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;NpTech Tag Cross Blog Discussion: What do those guidelines look like?&lt;/strong&gt;

The Cross Blog Discussion of the NpTechTag has generated some comments and blog posts that I've summarized below. Let's begin with big picture question that Gavin raised: What purpose do folksonomies serve? How are they different from taxonomies? Gavin...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>NpTech Tag Cross Blog Discussion: What do those guidelines look like?</strong></p>
<p>The Cross Blog Discussion of the NpTechTag has generated some comments and blog posts that I&#8217;ve summarized below. Let&#8217;s begin with big picture question that Gavin raised: What purpose do folksonomies serve? How are they different from taxonomies? Gavin&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.digitaldiner.org/2006/12/31/return-to-beneath-the-valley-of-the-metadata/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 17:14:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://diner.gilbert.org/?p=21#comment-16</guid>
		<description>Is there any living, breathing example of a taxonomic approach working (scaling) to keep-up with the hyper-efficiency we see in peer-production systems? I'm being quite serious here. Can you point me to a working model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there any living, breathing example of a taxonomic approach working (scaling) to keep-up with the hyper-efficiency we see in peer-production systems? I&#8217;m being quite serious here. Can you point me to a working model.</p>
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		<title>By: Beth</title>
		<link>http://www.digitaldiner.org/2006/12/31/return-to-beneath-the-valley-of-the-metadata/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 04:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://diner.gilbert.org/?p=21#comment-15</guid>
		<description>Gee Gavin, I wonder how all these people found their way to this post on your blog and left a comment?  Looks like a few people has linked to it too:
&lt;a href="http://www.technorati.com/search/digitaldiner.typepad.com%2F" rel="nofollow"&gt;http://www.technorati.com/search/digitaldiner.typepad.com%2F&lt;/a&gt;
Have your other posts have this many comments?  Do you think, gasp, that has anything to do with the tagging it NPTechTag?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gee Gavin, I wonder how all these people found their way to this post on your blog and left a comment?  Looks like a few people has linked to it too:<br />
<a href="http://www.technorati.com/search/digitaldiner.typepad.com%2F" rel="nofollow">http://www.technorati.com/search/digitaldiner.typepad.com%2F</a><br />
Have your other posts have this many comments?  Do you think, gasp, that has anything to do with the tagging it NPTechTag?</p>
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		<title>By: Alf Gracombe</title>
		<link>http://www.digitaldiner.org/2006/12/31/return-to-beneath-the-valley-of-the-metadata/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Alf Gracombe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 23:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://diner.gilbert.org/?p=21#comment-14</guid>
		<description>There are no doubt limitations with folksonomies, just as there are with taxonomies.  As consumers and organizers of content, I think we have to manage our own expectations about the value that can be had from either.  Folksonomies are far from a silver bullet, but I would argue counter to Gavin's point a bit and suggest taking a longer view here.

While at iapps, we developed a web development and hosting platform that relies heavily on the traditional taxonomic model - that of the content experts (the owners of the content of a given web property) providing the categories to which content could be attributed.  This is, essentially, tagging of content with pre-defined folksonomies.  We deliberately took this approach because, as web site and application designers (and admittedly, having some control-freakish tendencies), we didn't want the content to get too dispersed and encounter problems where, say, a list of categories would get too long and unwieldy, or a horizontal navigation bar would run off the page and blow the page layout away.  I think this speaks to one of Gavin's points, and in that context, I certainly agree.

But the types of web sites we were building, mostly public facing web sites for foundations and nonprofits, serve a very different purpose than some of the social software applications today that use folksonomies.  Folksonomies are certainly sloppy.  But a lot of this sloppiness and the inefficiencies in finding relevant content can be attributed to the embryonic stage of social content organization and consumption that the Internet is currently in.  But as the semantic web continues to emerge and the user interface designers and information architects adapt to these new paradigms, I anticipate many improvements in how content is "organized" and consumed on the Web.

The other point I want to make is this:  the big social sites (My Space, Flickr, del.icio.us, etc.) are not tailored to any one specific group of people.  They're for anyone and everyone.  The only way to target content to yourself in these environments is through your social connections on these sites and folksonomies/tagging.  And as Gavin and others have pointed out, it's messy and not particularly targeted in many cases.  But as more "hyper local", or location-based, sites and communities of interest/practice sites come online, I foresee a dramatic shift in the ability to catch and consume more relevant content (a good example of this can be found at &lt;a href="http://outside.in)." rel="nofollow"&gt;http://outside.in).&lt;/a&gt;  And it's in these environments, where the content is at the outset more targeted, and there's more content and human organization at a local or topic-based level, that I anticipate deriving more benefits from the folksonomy model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are no doubt limitations with folksonomies, just as there are with taxonomies.  As consumers and organizers of content, I think we have to manage our own expectations about the value that can be had from either.  Folksonomies are far from a silver bullet, but I would argue counter to Gavin&#8217;s point a bit and suggest taking a longer view here.</p>
<p>While at iapps, we developed a web development and hosting platform that relies heavily on the traditional taxonomic model - that of the content experts (the owners of the content of a given web property) providing the categories to which content could be attributed.  This is, essentially, tagging of content with pre-defined folksonomies.  We deliberately took this approach because, as web site and application designers (and admittedly, having some control-freakish tendencies), we didn&#8217;t want the content to get too dispersed and encounter problems where, say, a list of categories would get too long and unwieldy, or a horizontal navigation bar would run off the page and blow the page layout away.  I think this speaks to one of Gavin&#8217;s points, and in that context, I certainly agree.</p>
<p>But the types of web sites we were building, mostly public facing web sites for foundations and nonprofits, serve a very different purpose than some of the social software applications today that use folksonomies.  Folksonomies are certainly sloppy.  But a lot of this sloppiness and the inefficiencies in finding relevant content can be attributed to the embryonic stage of social content organization and consumption that the Internet is currently in.  But as the semantic web continues to emerge and the user interface designers and information architects adapt to these new paradigms, I anticipate many improvements in how content is &#8220;organized&#8221; and consumed on the Web.</p>
<p>The other point I want to make is this:  the big social sites (My Space, Flickr, del.icio.us, etc.) are not tailored to any one specific group of people.  They&#8217;re for anyone and everyone.  The only way to target content to yourself in these environments is through your social connections on these sites and folksonomies/tagging.  And as Gavin and others have pointed out, it&#8217;s messy and not particularly targeted in many cases.  But as more &#8220;hyper local&#8221;, or location-based, sites and communities of interest/practice sites come online, I foresee a dramatic shift in the ability to catch and consume more relevant content (a good example of this can be found at <a href="http://outside.in)." rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://outside.in" rel="nofollow">http://outside.in</a>).  And it&#8217;s in these environments, where the content is at the outset more targeted, and there&#8217;s more content and human organization at a local or topic-based level, that I anticipate deriving more benefits from the folksonomy model.</p>
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		<title>By: Holly</title>
		<link>http://www.digitaldiner.org/2006/12/31/return-to-beneath-the-valley-of-the-metadata/#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator>Holly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 02:12:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://diner.gilbert.org/?p=21#comment-13</guid>
		<description>And for a completely emotional response...I love the sure joy of discovery that folksonomies contribute.  Was just reading an article on Slate that articulated perfectly what I love about folksonomies:

Google Video lets you google videos (of course) by their titles and a brief description of each. Each page links to other matches. That's OK, but predictable. YouTube lets posters tag each clip themselves. For example, I tagged this clip of my 12 seconds on Good Morning America with "boutin wired slate gma." Whenever you play a YouTube clip, the page shows a half-dozen potential matches. A tag like "slate" could mean all sorts of things, so each page mixes perfect matches with what-the-huh results. A documentary on Scientology links to a South Park episode, which links to comedian Pablo Francisco. A few clicks later I'm watching some merry prankster get an unexpected smackdown. In Web 2.0-speak, this is a "folksonomy." In English, it means YouTube is a mix of every video genre imaginable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And for a completely emotional response&#8230;I love the sure joy of discovery that folksonomies contribute.  Was just reading an article on Slate that articulated perfectly what I love about folksonomies:</p>
<p>Google Video lets you google videos (of course) by their titles and a brief description of each. Each page links to other matches. That&#8217;s OK, but predictable. YouTube lets posters tag each clip themselves. For example, I tagged this clip of my 12 seconds on Good Morning America with &#8220;boutin wired slate gma.&#8221; Whenever you play a YouTube clip, the page shows a half-dozen potential matches. A tag like &#8220;slate&#8221; could mean all sorts of things, so each page mixes perfect matches with what-the-huh results. A documentary on Scientology links to a South Park episode, which links to comedian Pablo Francisco. A few clicks later I&#8217;m watching some merry prankster get an unexpected smackdown. In Web 2.0-speak, this is a &#8220;folksonomy.&#8221; In English, it means YouTube is a mix of every video genre imaginable.</p>
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